Discussion:
Selling Django
(too old to reply)
finn
2010-06-16 16:26:12 UTC
Permalink
Hi,

I have with interest followed the thread "Seeking Django vs. Joomla
comparison", and it has inspired me to start this new thread.

I consider myself a Python/Django programmer, and I do so because my
experiences with a number of programming languages, CMS'es and web
frameworks has lead me to believe that Python and Django is simply the
better choice from a technical perspective. I am not a fanatic and I
won't say that everything else sucks, but honestly - if you have the
choice between a better and a no-quite-so-good technology, you will of
course want to use the better one, despite that the other would work,
too.

Now to the problem: a lot of people who needs websites have heard of
Drupal or Joomla! or WordPress or PHP. But NOBODY has EVER heard about
Django. If somebody suggests that they make their website with
something called "Django" then this "Django-thing" must at least have
some reasons to why it exists and why one should prefer it over well-
known solutions. Consequently, people come the this discussion group
and ask: "What are the reasons that you think your product is
better?", and the answer they get is: "our product cannot be compared
with the others because you cannot compare apples with oranges." This
means that people who where willing to listen to a good sales talk
leaves the shop in a hurry because the salesman obviously didn't want
to sell anything at all. Which leaves me and a lot of other Django
entusiasts with not so much work as we would as we would like to have.

I think that we - the Django community - could do a better job selling
our product, and I'd like to volunteer in this work. I just don't know
how to do it.

Let me end this post with a comment to the "compare-apples-with-
oranges"-thing that I hear so often: every programmer knows that
"apples" can be compared with "oranges". Since "o" has a higher value
then "a" in most encoding systems, "oranges" > "apples". What we need
to do is simply to convince people that the flexibility and code
cleanness they get with Django gives them much more value than all of
the 1000+ Drupal modules together.

I think that was all...

Finn Gruwier Larsen
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Tom Evans
2010-06-16 17:00:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by finn
Hi,
I have with interest followed the thread "Seeking Django vs. Joomla
comparison", and it has inspired me to start this new thread.
....
Let me end this post with a comment to the "compare-apples-with-
oranges"-thing that I hear so often: every programmer knows that
"apples" can be compared with "oranges". Since "o" has a higher value
then "a" in most encoding systems, "oranges" > "apples". What we need
to do is simply to convince people that the flexibility and code
cleanness they get with Django gives them much more value than all of
the 1000+ Drupal modules together.
I think that was all...
Finn Gruwier Larsen
This kind of discussion comes up frequently whenever there are people
who like a bit of software, they get used to using one particular bit
of software, and start to think that that bit of software is so
clearly the best that choosing another bit of software is "wrong" and
their way is "better".

Different tasks may require different tools, and just because one
knows a particular tool extremely well, they think it should be used
for all of them, where as it is usually more accurate that many
different tools can produce an effective solution.
The most important thing for any project manager is that they know
precisely why they are using a particular tool. You should be able to
justify to yourself why to use a particular tool, and the answer is
never "it's better".

For instance, on one of my projects we are using django. Why are we
using django?

1) Django is written in python, python is quick and easy for
programmers to learn, lots of job applicants (profess to) have python
skills.
2) Django has an elegant structure of middleware and context
processors that allow us to modify/update important parts of the web
stack.
3) Django has a sane template system, not based on XML (use ZPT/XSLT
for a while, see what I mean :)
4) Django has useful 3rd party apps we can use to shorten development
time, eg django-rosetta for our translators to update translations,
django-south for managing database structure, contrib.auth and
contrib.admin.
5) We have resource to maintain development on this project

For other projects, eg our wiki, blogs, bug tracking and vcs we use
COTS software (well, Open Source Off The Shelf perhaps may be more
accurate), because we don't want to spend the time
maintaining/updating/improving these applications, we just want them
to work (hacking them until they work).

This is a long way of saying "Just because you can write a CMS in
django, you probably shouldn't". Unless your goal is developing a CMS
in django, you will waste time you could be doing useful things in!

Cheers

Tom
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Kenneth Gonsalves
2010-06-17 00:45:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by finn
I think that we - the Django community - could do a better job selling
our product, and I'd like to volunteer in this work. I just don't know
how to do it.
which is your market? The CMS market is aimed at the end user - the django
market is among developers.
--
Regards
Kenneth Gonsalves
Senior Associate
NRC-FOSS at AU-KBC
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Venkatraman S
2010-06-17 04:45:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by finn
I think that we - the Django community - could do a better job selling
our product, and I'd like to volunteer in this work. I just don't know
how to do it.
Very well structured email - and i concur to the views expressed and i
myself am sometimes at loss of words when i have to sell Django. I mean, i
can talk technically, but django needs more sales-tone to it now - which
basically means more user acceptance. Consider RoR - this is a framework
which i think is more 'marketed' than Django. Recently I heard one of my
pals who was new to web pragramming, who wants to build the site in RoR just
because it has a ORM and a templating engine. I was like @#$%^&* -- i told
him that in Django its much easier and it *also* has the same things and
ended up explaining it to him that most of web-languages/frameworks do
support all these, but the question is not that of supporting , but the ease
of development and maintaining the code --- in which Python scores a big
10/10.

Things like 'South' simply amaze me - data migrations on the go have never
been more easier. There are many more amazing components which are simple
but at the same time solve many of the complex routines - and all this
happens in the Django world which needs to be showcased. At the same time,
look at Pinax - its almost dead since 0.7 and #pinax is mostly silent;
whereas this is a kickass mashup which needs more innovation.

Django needs to be evangelized more.

Now, what can i do in this effort? I intend to start a django blog and go
through some of the nuances of the framework and start writing more and
showcase how certain things can be done more easily than other frameworks.
There are lots of django blogs around, and mine would probably be one more
in the list. But again, I am just trying :)

-V-
http://twitter.com/venkasub
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Brian Rosner
2010-06-18 08:58:11 UTC
Permalink
At the same time, look at Pinax - its almost dead since 0.7 and #pinax is mostly silent; whereas this is a kickass mashup which needs more innovation.
Let me make this clear: Pinax is *not* almost dead. Like every project there are drops in activity. I use it everyday and am constantly thinking of things to do to improve it. Activity will pick up over time. There has been a ton of changes since 0.7. See http://github.com/pinax/pinax/compare/0.7.X...master (Github won't even load the full list since it so big :-) )

Brian Rosner
http://oebfare.com
http://twitter.com/brosner
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Dmitry Dulepov
2010-06-17 08:01:25 UTC
Permalink
Hi!
Post by finn
Now to the problem: a lot of people who needs websites have heard of
Drupal or Joomla! or WordPress or PHP. But NOBODY has EVER heard about
Django.
That's because Django is not a CMS. You cannot take it, install onto web
site and start adding content. With CMS you do exactly that. With Django,
you don't. Yes, there are Flatpages but this is not serious for any big web
site.

If it makes you easier to understand, your comparison "Joomla vs Django" is
the same as "WordPress vs Zend Framework" or "Apache vs Python". These all
are different things, they are not comparable. Thus you cannot sell one
thing as another.
--
Dmitry Dulepov
Twitter: http://twitter.com/dmitryd/
Web: http://dmitry-dulepov.com/
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Russell Keith-Magee
2010-06-17 08:19:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by finn
Hi,
I have with interest followed the thread "Seeking Django vs. Joomla
comparison", and it has inspired me to start this new thread.
I consider myself a Python/Django programmer, and I do so because my
experiences with a number of programming languages, CMS'es and web
frameworks has lead me to believe that Python and Django is simply the
better choice from a technical perspective. I am not a fanatic and I
won't say that everything else sucks, but honestly - if you have the
choice between a better and a no-quite-so-good technology, you will of
course want to use the better one, despite that the other would work,
too.
Now to the problem: a lot of people who needs websites have heard of
Drupal or Joomla! or WordPress or PHP. But NOBODY has EVER heard about
Django. If somebody suggests that they make their website with
something called "Django" then this "Django-thing" must at least have
some reasons to why it exists and why one should prefer it over well-
known solutions. Consequently, people come the this discussion group
and ask: "What are the reasons that you think your product is
better?", and the answer they get is: "our product cannot be compared
with the others because you cannot compare apples with oranges." This
means that people who where willing to listen to a good sales talk
leaves the shop in a hurry because the salesman obviously didn't want
to sell anything at all. Which leaves me and a lot of other Django
entusiasts with not so much work as we would as we would like to have.
I think that we - the Django community - could do a better job selling
our product, and I'd like to volunteer in this work.
I completely agree. We've relied on our technical merit to get
'sales', and while that has served us well so far, there is a lot of
potential to promote Django further.
Post by finn
I just don't know
how to do it.
One idea that has been bounced around many times is to start an
'enterprise.djangoproject.com' companion site for djangoproject.com --
a site that makes the case for Django in a way that isn't technical,
but focuses on the business case. This could include content such as:

* Case studies
* 'Sales Brochures' suitable to give to a boss who might be
considering technical options
* Lists of contractors that will provide support when things go wrong
* Lists of training opportunities

There are at least three subtasks in this:
1. We need to actually design, build and deploy the site
2. We need to gathering the initial content for the site
3. Long term, we need to curate the content, including moderation of
case studies submitted by users, and direct solicitation of new case
studies.

If this sounds like a way you might like to contribute, then the first
step is to turn this skeleton proposal into something more concrete. I
don't have any particularly strong ideas, other than "it must be
awesome" -- here's the opportunity for you (or anyone else in the
community that wants to help out) to wow us.

Yours,
Russ Magee %-)
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Richard Shebora
2010-06-17 12:18:26 UTC
Permalink
I have been thinking about this for a while and am writing this
because everything said so far interests me greatly...

I am not a qualified django developer (yet), but have been
successfully building commercial sites for over ten years with the
last five in python/zope/plone. I love the pluggability of zope.
Just drop in a "product" and it is ready to use with minimal
configuration at the next restart. New features and content types are
very easy to mix and match. Having said that...

This is what I thought django was too, at first. It is more pluggable
than most but is still not really there. Pinax is a great example.
The fact that the project exists to integrate all those different
features and modules is evidence. Putting them together correctly is
so hard that it requires a project of it's own. If we need a showcase
I think Pinax is it. It is like Plone but better.

I would like to suggest that we consider using Pinax/Satchmo/LFS as
pet projects. The effort being to re-factor everything to follow a
list of "community approved" best practices and make everything more
plug and play. A manager/developer making the decisions on a platform
for their next project should be able to download django and just plug
in the functionality he/she needs. Dependencies will exist but that's
normal.

So with specific projects to work with, the real next step may be to
create that "Enterprise" site and give it a narrow focus of writing
guidelines and best practices. Then making the necessary changes to
the to Pinax/Satchmo/LFS projects to bring them into compliance.

If all that would happen django would be an easy choice for anyone,
well absolutely for me. Without these I spent months swinging back
and forth on various decisions because the above situation does not
exist for django.

I know I am just re-hashing but please move forward with this, or
something. I am most eager to help.

Thanks,
Richard Shebora
703-350-4707 office
202-215-2600 cel

On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 4:19 AM, Russell Keith-Magee
Post by Russell Keith-Magee
Post by finn
Hi,
I have with interest followed the thread "Seeking Django vs. Joomla
comparison", and it has inspired me to start this new thread.
I consider myself a Python/Django programmer, and I do so because my
experiences with a number of programming languages, CMS'es and web
frameworks has lead me to believe that Python and Django is simply the
better choice from a technical perspective. I am not a fanatic and I
won't say that everything else sucks, but honestly - if you have the
choice between a better and a no-quite-so-good technology, you will of
course want to use the better one, despite that the other would work,
too.
Now to the problem: a lot of people who needs websites have heard of
Drupal or Joomla! or WordPress or PHP. But NOBODY has EVER heard about
Django. If somebody suggests that they make their website with
something called "Django" then this "Django-thing" must at least have
some reasons to why it exists and why one should prefer it over well-
known solutions. Consequently, people come the this discussion group
and ask: "What are the reasons that you think your product is
better?", and the answer they get is: "our product cannot be compared
with the others because you cannot compare apples with oranges." This
means that people who where willing to listen to a good sales talk
leaves the shop in a hurry because the salesman obviously didn't want
to sell anything at all. Which leaves me and a lot of other Django
entusiasts with not so much work as we would as we would like to have.
I think that we - the Django community - could do a better job selling
our product, and I'd like to volunteer in this work.
I completely agree. We've relied on our technical merit to get
'sales', and while that has served us well so far, there is a lot of
potential to promote Django further.
Post by finn
I just don't know
how to do it.
One idea that has been bounced around many times is to start an
'enterprise.djangoproject.com' companion site for djangoproject.com --
a site that makes the case for Django in a way that isn't technical,
 * Case studies
 * 'Sales Brochures' suitable to give to a boss who might be
considering technical options
 * Lists of contractors that will provide support when things go wrong
 * Lists of training opportunities
 1. We need to actually design, build and deploy the site
 2. We need to gathering the initial content for the site
 3. Long term, we need to curate the content, including moderation of
case studies submitted by users, and direct solicitation of new case
studies.
If this sounds like a way you might like to contribute, then the first
step is to turn this skeleton proposal into something more concrete. I
don't have any particularly strong ideas, other than "it must be
awesome" -- here's the opportunity for you (or anyone else in the
community that wants to help out) to wow us.
Yours,
Russ Magee %-)
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Matt Hoskins
2010-06-17 13:43:58 UTC
Permalink
<snip>
plug and play.  A manager/developer making the decisions on a platform
for their next project should be able to download django and just plug
in the functionality he/she needs.  Dependencies will exist but that's
normal.
<snip>
If all that would happen django would be an easy choice for anyone,
well absolutely for me.  Without these I spent months swinging back
and forth on various decisions because the above situation does not
exist for django.
The market you talk about sounds like one where things like Pinax/
Satchmo/LFS are a substantial match for their requirements and who can
then benefit from the power of Django in extending beyond the
capabilities of what those apps provide. The drupal/joomla/plone/
wordpress type market, perhaps?

The kinds of applications I build in Django aren't in the style of
public-facing websites, they're web-based applications where few if
any of the facilities from Pinax, Satchmo or LFS are of any interest
to me. In fact for me one of the appeals of Django was that it didn't
try to do too much for me (i.e. it didn't quickly start to get in the
way like, say, drupal tends to once you get beyond a certain point).

I quite like the skeleton proposal Russ sketches out in the mail you
replied to - that sounds like it would have more of a general reach
rather than trying to get into the drupal/joomla/plone/wordpress
space.

Regards,
Matt
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Richard Shebora
2010-06-17 14:06:18 UTC
Permalink
@Matt

You are correct. The "drupal/joomla/plone/wordpress space" does exist
and it is where most people (non-developers) look first. These are
the people who need to perceive django in a more positive light if the
goal is to increase django market share. They are the people who hire
you and I. If not, it's a moot point.

@Everyone

I was not clear that I support everything Russ said, and that I am
most in favor of an "Enterprise" site that sets forth standards and
best practices which make apps more compatible and hence more
marketable.

I will die, maybe tomorrow by blunt force trauma from a bus, but I
will die. There has to be a clear path for my clients when that
happens. I am still eager to be involved.

Thanks,
Richard Shebora
Post by Matt Hoskins
<snip>
plug and play.  A manager/developer making the decisions on a platform
for their next project should be able to download django and just plug
in the functionality he/she needs.  Dependencies will exist but that's
normal.
<snip>
If all that would happen django would be an easy choice for anyone,
well absolutely for me.  Without these I spent months swinging back
and forth on various decisions because the above situation does not
exist for django.
The market you talk about sounds like one where things like Pinax/
Satchmo/LFS are a substantial match for their requirements and who can
then benefit from the power of Django in extending beyond the
capabilities of what those apps provide. The drupal/joomla/plone/
wordpress type market, perhaps?
The kinds of applications I build in Django aren't in the style of
public-facing websites, they're web-based applications where few if
any of the facilities from Pinax, Satchmo or LFS are of any interest
to me. In fact for me one of the appeals of Django was that it didn't
try to do too much for me (i.e. it didn't quickly start to get in the
way like, say, drupal tends to once you get beyond a certain point).
I quite like the skeleton proposal Russ sketches out in the mail you
replied to - that sounds like it would have more of a general reach
rather than trying to get into the drupal/joomla/plone/wordpress
space.
Regards,
Matt
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Russell Keith-Magee
2010-06-17 15:24:02 UTC
Permalink
@Matt
You are correct.  The "drupal/joomla/plone/wordpress space" does exist
and it is where most people (non-developers) look first.  These are
the people who need to perceive django in a more positive light if the
goal is to increase django market share.  They are the people who hire
you and I.  If not, it's a moot point.
@Everyone
I was not clear that I support everything Russ said, and that I am
most in favor of an "Enterprise" site that sets forth standards and
best practices which make apps more compatible and hence more
marketable.
Perhaps I wasn't clear, but that's not what I meant by an "enterprise" site.

The enterprise site I'm talking about is the list of stuff you can use
to convince your pointy-haired, non-technical boss that Django is
worth considering instead of J2EE, .Net or whatever other big $$$
"serious enterprise" framework they're being sold. This means reducing
the risk factors from a non-technical perspective, or at least framing
technical factors at a level that non-technical people can understand.
Case studies show that other big companies are using Django, and
benefited from using it; lists of contractors show that there are
options when problems arise; and so on.

The technical requirements for interoperability are a separate issue.
It's certainly an issue that should be addressed, but I'm not
convinced it requires a whole other site. What is needed in this area
is for someone to condense the best practices that have evolved in
Pinax (and other comparable large tools) into a coherent guide that
can be integrated into Django's own documentation. If this is a
project that interests you, I heartily encourage you to pursue it.

On a historical note -- Pinax exists as a concrete manifestation of
django-hotclub, which is/was a project to do exactly what you describe
-- to define and document best practices for reusable Django apps.
However, over time, the abstract idea of the Hotclub has taken a back
seat to the practicalities of Pinax.

Yours,
Russ Magee %-)
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Richard Shebora
2010-06-17 18:36:48 UTC
Permalink
Russ,

Yes, I did at first see this as one issue. I see that your
"Enterprise" site should not define best practices but at most refer
to them as further reading. My email addresses the same issues as Tom
and Venkatraman above. Thanks for explaining.

Thanks,
Richard Shebora

On Thu, Jun 17, 2010 at 11:24 AM, Russell Keith-Magee
Post by Russell Keith-Magee
@Matt
You are correct.  The "drupal/joomla/plone/wordpress space" does exist
and it is where most people (non-developers) look first.  These are
the people who need to perceive django in a more positive light if the
goal is to increase django market share.  They are the people who hire
you and I.  If not, it's a moot point.
@Everyone
I was not clear that I support everything Russ said, and that I am
most in favor of an "Enterprise" site that sets forth standards and
best practices which make apps more compatible and hence more
marketable.
Perhaps I wasn't clear, but that's not what I meant by an "enterprise" site.
The enterprise site I'm talking about is the list of stuff you can use
to convince your pointy-haired, non-technical boss that Django is
worth considering instead of J2EE, .Net or whatever other big $$$
"serious enterprise" framework they're being sold. This means reducing
the risk factors from a non-technical perspective, or at least framing
technical factors at a level that non-technical people can understand.
Case studies show that other big companies are using Django, and
benefited from using it; lists of contractors show that there are
options when problems arise; and so on.
The technical requirements for interoperability are a separate issue.
It's certainly an issue that should be addressed, but I'm not
convinced it requires a whole other site. What is needed in this area
is for someone to condense the best practices that have evolved in
Pinax (and other comparable large tools) into a coherent guide that
can be integrated into Django's own documentation. If this is a
project that interests you, I heartily encourage you to pursue it.
On a historical note -- Pinax exists as a concrete manifestation of
django-hotclub, which is/was a project to do exactly what you describe
-- to define and document best practices for reusable Django apps.
However, over time, the abstract idea of the Hotclub has taken a back
seat to the practicalities of Pinax.
Yours,
Russ Magee %-)
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Matt Hoskins
2010-06-17 15:36:28 UTC
Permalink
Richard,

That is where most people who are looking for something *in that
space* look first - i.e. they have a set of requirements where those
platforms are a good fit for what they're trying to do, but it isn't
the only space. Those people aren't the people who pay my wages at
present because, as I said, I'm currently not building applications
where any of those would be a good fit :). I originally selected
Django because I was looking for something that was specifically not
in the space that, say, drupal is in as although some of the
facilities it and other vaguely similar frameworks provide could have
been of use, a lot of what they provided wasn't a good fit or was just
irrelevant and if using them I would have been forced into doing
things a less-than-ideal way.

As you got more specific in this thread your approach seemed to be
orientating towards "selling" Django by "selling" Django-based
applications of a certain type (a bit like "selling" Zope by "selling"
Plone, perhaps?) and thus the path to that being to sort out those
applications. I'm not saying it's not a valid approach (having great
re-usable applications is no bad thing), I'm just saying it's not the
only approach and that the space you talk about is not the only
requirement space where Django is useful.

Regards,
Matt
@Matt
You are correct.  The "drupal/joomla/plone/wordpress space" does exist
and it is where most people (non-developers) look first.  These are
the people who need to perceive django in a more positive light if the
goal is to increase django market share.  They are the people who hire
you and I.  If not, it's a moot point.
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Richard Shebora
2010-06-17 18:39:45 UTC
Permalink
Matt,

Between you and Russ I see what you mean. I will contact Tom and
Venkatraman regarding their concept to see how I can help. I am not
proficient with django's paradigm yet, but I can get better in the
process.

Thanks,
Richard Shebora
Post by Matt Hoskins
Richard,
That is where most people who are looking for something *in that
space* look first - i.e. they have a set of requirements where those
platforms are a good fit for what they're trying to do, but it isn't
the only space. Those people aren't the people who pay my wages at
present because, as I said, I'm currently not building applications
where any of those would be a good fit :). I originally selected
Django because I was looking for something that was specifically not
in the space that, say, drupal is in as although some of the
facilities it and other vaguely similar frameworks provide could have
been of use, a lot of what they provided wasn't a good fit or was just
irrelevant and if using them I would have been forced into doing
things a less-than-ideal way.
As you got more specific in this thread your approach seemed to be
orientating towards "selling" Django by "selling" Django-based
applications of a certain type (a bit like "selling" Zope by "selling"
Plone, perhaps?) and thus the path to that being to sort out those
applications. I'm not saying it's not a valid approach (having great
re-usable applications is no bad thing), I'm just saying it's not the
only approach and that the space you talk about is not the only
requirement space where Django is useful.
Regards,
Matt
@Matt
You are correct.  The "drupal/joomla/plone/wordpress space" does exist
and it is where most people (non-developers) look first.  These are
the people who need to perceive django in a more positive light if the
goal is to increase django market share.  They are the people who hire
you and I.  If not, it's a moot point.
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Yo-Yo Ma
2010-06-18 00:16:02 UTC
Permalink
This thread shows a very prevalent side of most developers that makes
me ashamed to tell people that I'm a developer.

The OP is not saying that we should go out and advertise that Django
is a great CMS. In fact he spends half of his post making trying to
preemptively shut all the know-it-all folks up before they even start
with, "The problem with your post is... [insert ignoramus disguised as
b-rated philosophy]".

The fact of the matter is that the best software sometimes comes from
those who have no business sense (or any sense for that matter).
Django's community is very closed minded. For those of you who would
like to promote Django as awesome for building ['CMS', 'SOCIAL
APPLICATION', 'INSERT YOUR FAVORITE WHEEL TO REINVENT'], feel free to
do so. You're helping yourself, not the closed-minded folks. They
don't get jobs usually which is why they work for free.

In Summary: Great post/question. This is something I think that has to
be addressed by community members on their own, instead of relying on
core Django clique.
Matt,
Between you and Russ I see what you mean.  I will contact Tom and
Venkatraman regarding their concept to see how I can help.  I am not
proficient with django's paradigm yet, but I can get better in the
process.
Thanks,
Richard Shebora
Post by Matt Hoskins
Richard,
That is where most people who are looking for something *in that
space* look first - i.e. they have a set of requirements where those
platforms are a good fit for what they're trying to do, but it isn't
the only space. Those people aren't the people who pay my wages at
present because, as I said, I'm currently not building applications
where any of those would be a good fit :). I originally selected
Django because I was looking for something that was specifically not
in the space that, say, drupal is in as although some of the
facilities it and other vaguely similar frameworks provide could have
been of use, a lot of what they provided wasn't a good fit or was just
irrelevant and if using them I would have been forced into doing
things a less-than-ideal way.
As you got more specific in this thread your approach seemed to be
orientating towards "selling" Django by "selling" Django-based
applications of a certain type (a bit like "selling" Zope by "selling"
Plone, perhaps?) and thus the path to that being to sort out those
applications. I'm not saying it's not a valid approach (having great
re-usable applications is no bad thing), I'm just saying it's not the
only approach and that the space you talk about is not the only
requirement space where Django is useful.
Regards,
Matt
@Matt
You are correct.  The "drupal/joomla/plone/wordpress space" does exist
and it is where most people (non-developers) look first.  These are
the people who need to perceive django in a more positive light if the
goal is to increase django market share.  They are the people who hire
you and I.  If not, it's a moot point.
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Matt Hoskins
2010-06-18 07:31:55 UTC
Permalink
Yo-Yo Ma,

You must be reading a different thread to me... Or rather I don't see
it in quite as negative terms as you do and I'm a bit baffled as to
how you've interpreted it quite so strongly!

Richard's OP was indeed not saying that we should go out and advertise
that it's a great CMS but he did mention some CMS and his follow-up
post did indicate that the approach he was thinking about was oriented
more towards those with a requirements for CMS-type-things where
applications to do a lot of it could already be reused. In the
responses from others in the thread I see enthusiasm for raising the
profile of Django (and making it easier for people to make an informed
decision about whether it's a good fit for their requirements) but
also musings on the "market" for Django and about the re-usable
applications (in particular those to assist in CMS-type-things) being
a related, but separate, strand to Django core.

"They don't get jobs usually which is why they work for free." did
make me laugh, so nice one ;)

Regards,
Matt
Post by Yo-Yo Ma
This thread shows a very prevalent side of most developers that makes
me ashamed to tell people that I'm a developer.
The OP is not saying that we should go out and advertise that Django
is a great CMS. In fact he spends half of his post making trying to
preemptively shut all the know-it-all folks up before they even start
with, "The problem with your post is... [insert ignoramus disguised as
b-rated philosophy]".
The fact of the matter is that the best software sometimes comes from
those who have no business sense (or any sense for that matter).
Django's community is very closed minded. For those of you who would
like to promote Django as awesome for building ['CMS', 'SOCIAL
APPLICATION', 'INSERT YOUR FAVORITE WHEEL TO REINVENT'], feel free to
do so. You're helping yourself, not the closed-minded folks. They
don't get jobs usually which is why they work for free.
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Matt Hoskins
2010-06-18 07:44:38 UTC
Permalink
Richard,

Glad I managed to get across where I'm coming from - I was struggling
a bit with coming up with how to express it :). Great to hear you're
going to contact Tom and Venkatraman about helping. I hope you didn't
take anything I said as wanting to pour cold water on where you're
coming from - it is an interesting topic and, like I said, I
appreciate there are plenty of current and potential users for the re-
usable apps in the CMS-type-space out there so anything that can be
done to improve those is of course beneficial and would help raise the
profile of Django (plus if I do end up doing something more CMS-y in
future I'll be delighted if there's some good stuff there :).

Regards,
Matt
Matt,
Between you and Russ I see what you mean.  I will contact Tom and
Venkatraman regarding their concept to see how I can help.  I am not
proficient with django's paradigm yet, but I can get better in the
process.
Thanks,
Richard Shebora
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finn
2010-06-18 09:53:20 UTC
Permalink
Thanks for all the comments so far. I seem to have started a debate,
and that was exactly the purpose!

First, let me try to clarify something: I would never try to sell
Django as a CMS because it obviously isn't a CMS. But that doesn't
mean that comparisons with CMS's does not serve a purpose. They do.
This excellent blog post is a good example:
http://birdhouse.org/blog/2009/11/11/drupal-or-django/.

”Selling” is very much about meeting potential customers where they
are. I think that at least some potential customers for potentially
successful Django projects start their search for a foundation to
build on at the CMS marketplace (relevant to their project or not). We
should have a way to say to these people: ”although Django is not a
CMS, it might in fact be exactly what you're looking for”.

Russ: I would love to contribute to such a site with ideas about
structure and content. But I think the site should have a very nice
and appealing layout, and I am not a very good designer, so somebody
else would be needed for that part. Another thing: we should probably
start with considering one of the Django ready-made CMS'es for the
site. But of course, it should be very clear that the site should not
promote that CMS in particular.

Richard Shevora mentioned that Django should have a ”pet project”. The
term might be inspired by Suns (now ORACLEs) well-known ”Java Pet
Store”: https://blueprints.dev.java.net/petstore/. I think having a
kind of a reference application like this could be a really great way
to show both technical and non-technical people what Django can do!
But I think it should be an application that was designed specifically
for a demo-purpose. Maybe a ”Django pet store” where you can buy
parrots and pythons? :-)

Finn Gruwier Larsen
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Richard Shebora
2010-06-18 12:16:22 UTC
Permalink
Finn,

My idea for a "Pet" project is not to promote a particular project.
We simply need a project with a relatively large number of "re-usable"
apps that can be brought into compliance with the "Best Practices"
guidelines. While I do see this as a separate effort and needing a
separate site, I do think it is pivotal to "selling" django.

As a new django developer I am constantly trying to determine the best
way to implement a particular use case. [idea] So, could the
enterprise site focus on generating the use cases (pet store selling
python's and parots, and such) and the 10,000 foot view explaining
them? Then the best practices site could implement these use cases
with detailed docs. [/idea] This would give a code base that conforms
and is re-usable based on real-world needs. The process of
implementing the use cases alone would reveal paths of least
resistance in django.

Most of my clients are new to the web and assume they need a cms type
thing to get started and then build from there. This is why I tend to
develop a cms and then plug everything into it. I love django and
would like to have that boiler plate code in my pocket when I write up
a proposal.

Thanks,
Richard Shebora
Post by finn
Thanks for all the comments so far. I seem to have started a debate,
and that was exactly the purpose!
First, let me try to clarify something: I would never try to sell
Django as a CMS because it obviously isn't a CMS. But that doesn't
mean that comparisons with CMS's does not serve a purpose. They do.
http://birdhouse.org/blog/2009/11/11/drupal-or-django/.
”Selling” is very much about meeting potential customers where they
are. I think that at least some potential customers for potentially
successful Django projects start their search for a foundation to
build on at the CMS marketplace (relevant to their project or not). We
should have a way to say to these people: ”although Django is not a
CMS, it might in fact be exactly what you're looking for”.
Russ: I would love to contribute to such a site with ideas about
structure and content. But I think  the site should have a very nice
and appealing layout, and I am not a very good designer, so somebody
else would be needed for that part. Another thing: we should probably
start with considering one of the Django ready-made CMS'es for the
site. But of course, it should be very clear that the site should not
promote that CMS in particular.
Richard Shevora mentioned that Django should have a ”pet project”. The
term might be inspired by Suns (now ORACLEs) well-known ”Java Pet
Store”: https://blueprints.dev.java.net/petstore/. I think having a
kind of a reference application like this could be a really great way
to show both technical and non-technical people what Django can do!
But I think it should be an application that was designed specifically
for a demo-purpose. Maybe a ”Django pet store” where you can buy
parrots and pythons? :-)
Finn Gruwier Larsen
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Russell Keith-Magee
2010-06-18 12:45:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Shebora
Finn,
My idea for a "Pet" project is not to promote a particular project.
We simply need a project with a relatively large number of "re-usable"
apps that can be brought into compliance with the "Best Practices"
guidelines.  While I do see this as a separate effort and needing a
separate site, I do think it is pivotal to "selling" django.
As a new django developer I am constantly trying to determine the best
way to implement a particular use case.  [idea] So, could the
enterprise site focus on generating the use cases (pet store selling
python's and parots, and such) and the 10,000 foot view explaining
them?  Then the best practices site could implement these use cases
with detailed docs.  [/idea] This would give a code base that conforms
and is re-usable based on real-world needs.  The process of
implementing the use cases alone would reveal paths of least
resistance in django.
Most of my clients are new to the web and assume they need a cms type
thing to get started and then build from there.  This is why I tend to
develop a cms and then plug everything into it.  I love django and
would like to have that boiler plate code in my pocket when I write up
a proposal.
I must be missing something, because I honestly can't tell the
difference between what you're proposing, and what Pinax (and the
corresponding live-demo site cloud27.com) is intended to do.

There may be aspects of Pinax's documentation that could be improved,
and there may be features that Pinax doesn't have that are worth
demonstrating, but it sounds like it would be a lot easier to add
to/improve on Pinax than to try starting a new project from scratch.

Yours,
Russ Magee %-)
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Richard Shebora
2010-06-20 15:51:57 UTC
Permalink
Russ,

Thanks for this clarification. After reading your post I went to
http://pinaxproject.com/ and do indeed see your point. I am happy to jump
on board and help with the project that is the generally accepted place for
learning about (i stress learning about for me), and improving django
application portability across django projects.

Is it a consensus that Pinax is this project, even if by default because
it's the best and biggest so far? I hope so because it has a major head
start and doing any of this work from scratch would be much harder.
<prayer>Please let every say Pinax is the one!</prayer> If it is not, how
do we agree on the best project to expend time and effort?

Responses? Clarifications? Votes?

Sorry if I seem either redundant or naive in all of this, but I really would
like to resolve this issue, at least for myself because I need to get some
projects up and running. And the only thing that has been stopping me
is uncertainty about best practices. I will just get started regardless of
the outcome of this post, but I'd love to have a obvious direction to
proceed.

Thanks,
Richard Shebora

On Fri, Jun 18, 2010 at 8:45 AM, Russell Keith-Magee <
Post by Russell Keith-Magee
Post by Richard Shebora
Finn,
My idea for a "Pet" project is not to promote a particular project.
We simply need a project with a relatively large number of "re-usable"
apps that can be brought into compliance with the "Best Practices"
guidelines. While I do see this as a separate effort and needing a
separate site, I do think it is pivotal to "selling" django.
As a new django developer I am constantly trying to determine the best
way to implement a particular use case. [idea] So, could the
enterprise site focus on generating the use cases (pet store selling
python's and parots, and such) and the 10,000 foot view explaining
them? Then the best practices site could implement these use cases
with detailed docs. [/idea] This would give a code base that conforms
and is re-usable based on real-world needs. The process of
implementing the use cases alone would reveal paths of least
resistance in django.
Most of my clients are new to the web and assume they need a cms type
thing to get started and then build from there. This is why I tend to
develop a cms and then plug everything into it. I love django and
would like to have that boiler plate code in my pocket when I write up
a proposal.
I must be missing something, because I honestly can't tell the
difference between what you're proposing, and what Pinax (and the
corresponding live-demo site cloud27.com) is intended to do.
There may be aspects of Pinax's documentation that could be improved,
and there may be features that Pinax doesn't have that are worth
demonstrating, but it sounds like it would be a lot easier to add
to/improve on Pinax than to try starting a new project from scratch.
Yours,
Russ Magee %-)
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Russell Keith-Magee
2010-06-21 01:17:24 UTC
Permalink
Russ,
Thanks for this clarification.  After reading your post I went
to http://pinaxproject.com/ and do indeed see your point.  I am happy to
jump on board and help with the project that is the generally accepted place
for learning about (i stress learning about for me), and improving django
application portability across django projects.
Is it a consensus that Pinax is this project, even if by default because
it's the best and biggest so far?  I hope so because it has a major head
start and doing any of this work from scratch would be much harder.
 <prayer>Please let every say Pinax is the one!</prayer>  If it is not, how
do we agree on the best project to expend time and effort?
Responses? Clarifications? Votes?
Pinax is as good an example of large-scale best practice as I'm aware of.

The only other examples I would point at are the reusable apps
published by James Bennett (ubernostrum); he's given numerous talks on
the subject of reusability at various PyCons and DjangoCons; his
talks, blog and book are also useful resources.

Yours,
Russ Magee %-)
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Kenneth Gonsalves
2010-06-18 00:11:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Shebora
You are correct. The "drupal/joomla/plone/wordpress space" does exist
and it is where most people (non-developers) look first. These are
the people who need to perceive django in a more positive light if the
goal is to increase django market share. They are the people who hire
you and I. If not, it's a moot point.
and drupal/joomla/plone/wordpress are ideal for this space - django does not
fit here
--
Regards
Kenneth Gonsalves
Senior Associate
NRC-FOSS at AU-KBC
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Richard Shebora
2010-06-18 00:37:57 UTC
Permalink
Kenneth,

You are right... of course.

However, I am not trying to disguise django as a cms, just trying to
say it would be great to have a best practices declaration for a cms
within django. And for all the other great modules that don't yet
play well together out of the box.

Thanks,
Richard Shebora
Post by Kenneth Gonsalves
You are correct.  The "drupal/joomla/plone/wordpress space" does exist
and it is where most people (non-developers) look first.  These are
the people who need to perceive django in a more positive light if the
goal is to increase django market share.  They are the people who hire
you and I.  If not, it's a moot point.
and drupal/joomla/plone/wordpress are ideal for this space - django does not
fit here
--
Regards
Kenneth Gonsalves
Senior Associate
NRC-FOSS at AU-KBC
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backdoc
2010-06-17 17:25:23 UTC
Permalink
This is also one of the things I like most about Django. It's helpful, but
not so much that it gets in the way or makes doing anything "outside the
box" difficult.

But, I'm just a newbie who's learning and doing lots of stuff wrong. But, I
continue work in Django because it seems like a sound investment of my
time. I'm not painting myself into a corner.

If I wanted a CMS, I think I would have just selected one already built.
But, I was interested in building sites from the ground up, without
reinventing the wheel and with the security of knowing that someone else has
already scrutinized the code for security issues. I can proceed with
confidence.

darren

to me. In fact for me one of the appeals of Django was that it didn't
Post by Matt Hoskins
try to do too much for me (i.e. it didn't quickly start to get in the
way like, say, drupal tends to once you get beyond a certain point).
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Joshua Kramer
2010-06-20 06:17:04 UTC
Permalink
These are all great posts!

I'll tell you from experience - there are two main concerns with most
large companies and web app development:

1. Can I hire people off the street who know product X?
2. How fast can I develop apps with product X?

Python and Django should be easy to pick up for competent developers,
so I'll leave those sales pitches to others who might want to endeavor
on that exercise.

Here's something you can use for the second point:
http://kurtgrandis.com/blog/2010/02/24/python-django-vs-c-asp-net-productivity-showdown/

...according to Kurt, similarly-capable developers using Django will
be approximately 200% more productive than those working with C#
and .NET. That is without using the .NET MVC controllers, though I
think it'd be interesting to re-do the comparison using all of the
relevant features of .NET.
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